Today’s Gun Makers, Engravers and Dealers of German Hunting Guns Most of the traditional bolt-action rifles and combination guns are still made today, but the following changes and trends are apparent: Prices of German factory made guns are in general higher than equal models in the United States but usually offer more custom features.Guns made to order by some factories … Belgian Shotgun Identification The Banc d’Epreuves de Liege proved 233,526 double barrel smoothbore guns in 1889, the majority for export.In 1899 alone, the U.S. firms of Hartley & Graham and Simmons Hardware bought 90,000 shotguns, … Some examples of both gun marks and trade names … Instead of playing w/ your loads, if there's enough steel in bbl # 1 [the right one I assume? 1894-> Liege. Introduced to designate arms proved in conformity of German Proof Law of 1891. After about 1924 the names are pretty solid, before that it is any one's guess. The following information comes from The Book of the Pistol and Revolver by Hugh B. C. Pollard.The Book of the Pistol and Revolver is also available to purchase in print.. 1672 – 1810, 1853 - present 2 Replace #1 in 1810. Inspectors mark, normally these are kept secret. The gun features fine twist barrels, scroll engraving, and hand checkering. https://gerardcox.blogspot.com/2014/06/deciphering-belgian-proof-marks.html Complete with a pair of J. Purdey and Sons snap caps. I wonder if there is any connection between Belgian doublegun patent(s) holder Henri Woit (c1912 - c1919) and the two Woit's that appear on the page above (Christophe, and Nicolas), http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=17575181, https://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowledge.com/www/home, http://www.damascus-barrels.com/Movie.html, http://www.worldwidemetric.com/metcal.htm, Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5. On barrels of breechloading shotguns after final black powder proof. Proof marks are stamps applied to various parts of a weapon during and after manufacture to show that the weapon is safe for use with the ammunition for which it was designed.. Can be without star and ring. The London marks may be accompanied by private makers' marks, those for Birmingham will be unofficial private proof and makers marks. 2 On barrel locking system or chamber if the lumps are part of the barrel after final black powder proof, Preliminary proof for unfinished barrels, and indicated barrels had not been weakened after proof by breeching, Used on muzzle loaders, Bore diameter in millimeters. American Gunsmiths by Sellers, and American Gun Makers by Gluckman & Satterlee list American makers. Length of chamber over diameter of chamber. 1813 - 1855 The London provisional mark was introduced at some point during this proof period but even the Proof House cannot be sure precisely when at this distance in time. (But he does describe it.) Wood Bottom 1900-1930: Commercial Wood Bottom 1900-1923: Cal. The mark was seldom requested, Chamber dimensions in millimeters shotguns undergoing smokeless proof. My 1924 or before gun must have gone in for a later reproof as it has a lion over P.V. PROOF MARKS: BELGIAN PROOF MARKSPROOF MARKS: BELGIAN PROOF MARKS, cont. Choose from 20+ Antique Guns, prices from £175 to £6,950. Interesting that he does not show the gauge-chamber length mark that replaced the gauge over C in a diamond. Maximum service load for shotguns having undergone smokeless proof. In England, the London and Birmingham proof houses were established (in 1637 and 1813, respectively) by Royal Charter to protect the public from the sale of unsafe weapons. PROOF MARKS: AUSTRIAN PROOF MARKS, cont. The table below can be used to see if your gun was proofed in London or Birmingham. Belgian proofs are among the oldest and have a very long history. Gun Barrel Proof Marks. Circa 1862-1865. Applied to all guns made but not proofed in Belgium - sent to an other country proof facilities. Please note! On barrels of muzzleloading guns that has passed a re-enforced black powder proof. On barrels and actions of smoothbore guns with the gauge size (or nominal bore) plus the shell or cartridge case length. Belgian date codes. Proof Marks are usually found on the underside of the barrels, and if a gun has German proof marks and was made in 1892 or later, you know that the gun was proof tested in Germany. The gun was finely crafted with a silvered trigger guard and hardware with etched tendrils throughout. The proof laws of 1868 was the hardest one in Europe at that time: half the barrel was filled with black powder, the rest of the barrel was filled with number 9 shot and the rifle was fired. ], you can probably tighten the choke in it via 'backboring'... jig: 18.0 is .70866, or at least 15 points contriction for a standard European 12b which, at the time of production of your gun, was probably .724. Is that how they did it/ They would just take the gun in and ask for a reproof? More Info ... A Belgian 6 shot double action 10 mm antique pin-fire revolver. My experinec with the gun as it is choked is that on quail and doves I was deadly with bbl 1 with the open choke and bbl 2. This had been going on for decades. Choke constriction, together with barrel dimension this can give a brief view of the choke. The same stamp but smaller is found on Flobert guns, selfloading pistols with a excess proof pressure of 50%, on barrels of top break guns for Flobert or revolvers cartridges an excess pressure of 30% and or revolvers which are proofed with 30-50% excess loads. To my knowledge the Belgians were the only one's who identified the Controller. Belgian Proofmarks. Ref 3171 ... A good English flintlock pocket pistol made by "Wright" of London and engraved with the makers name. This had been going on for decades. Introduced for handguns in 1894, rifles over 8mm in 1897. restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum. * * A cased pair of English Flintlock duelling pistols by the famous gun maker Durs Egg. High quality modern case for a shotgun 87 x 29 x 10 cm, would suit gun with 68 cm barrels. Introduced for handguns in 1894, rifles over 8mm in 1897. The 1st is in European cursive. Applies primarily to guns made outside the U.S. Information courtesy of The Blue Book of Gun … It is not easy to pinpoint the share going to the Liege people in the development of the portable weapon in the 19th century, but, between 1830 and 1907, there was not less than 6.331 patents granted in Belgium in this field. These might cursive as well. I was too lazy to enlarge, cut and paste, and post all of them. Damascus Steel Double Barrel Shot Gun BELGIUM, 19TH CENTURY A Belgian Damascus steel double barrel shotgun. This mark is found on guns that is not made in Belgium by countries that use proofs that is not recognized by the Belgian Proof House. Black powder proof for rifles and shotguns. I've revised the 'Belgian Maker's and Proof Marks' album to make thing a bit easier, with the essential illustrations much larger. Doesn't this seem strange? The bench test controller's (inspector's) personal marks used 1853-1877 were a capital letter with a. On barrels and actions of smoothbore guns with the gauge size. But despite the history the belgian proof stamps are rather straight forward, normally one can’t get more information from the proof more than it has been done if one can’t find the inspectors mark. 956, Belgian proofs, 30 inch barrels, locks marked Manhattan Arms Co., checkered walnut stock and fore-end. Provisional black powder proof for breech loading guns, since 1924 reserved for smooth bore barrels. Only Genuine Antique Guns Approved. On barrel action of breech loading shotgun after the gun has passed proof with semi-smokeless powder . Originally it was managed jointly by the gun manufacturers, the State, the Province and the City of Liege. 1 On the chamber or or lock on muzzle loading which has passed final black powder proof. The date stamps is not used on all guns, otherwise that is the most accurate. German firearms are loaded with a variety of markings and stamps. May be blued from 1923. £490.00. BELGIAN PROOF MARKS PrOOF mark CirCa PrOOF hOuse tYPe OF PrOOF and gun since 1852 Liege provisional black powder proof for breech loading guns and rifled barrels - Liege- double proof marking for unfurnished barrels 20 Gauge SxS European Hammer Double Gun Here we present an antique Double Barrel Side by Side Percussion Shotgun, made circa 1840 in Liege, Belgium. Can be either of these. Découvrez vos propres épingles sur Pinterest et enregistrez-les. ... [more like this] A lot of two double barrel shotguns Comprising: 1) 12 gauge hammer gun, serial no. If you are looking to buy guns or sell guns, you have come to the right place. Smokeless powder proof of military rifles until 1903, thereafter indicates nitro proof for all types of arms. Double proof as prescribed by the French law of 1810. For example, this means that a gun with Belgian proof marks can be sold in the UK without being re-proofed because Belgium is a CIP member. These might cursive as well. Small Arms Makers by Gardner lists both American and European makers. BELGIAN PROOF MARKS Mark Number Description Dates Used Mark 1 The Perron, sole proof mark until dropped in 1810, Since 1853 used to indicate inspection or proof of breeching system. The French proof system is old and start in 1700. GunsInternational.com is the #1 Gun Classified website that brings gun buyers and gun brokers or sellers together through classifed advertising of guns, gun related items and services for sale online. Luger Magazine Marks Light sheet steel body with crimped edges. Thank you for taking the time to do this...good stuff. PROOF MARKS: BELGIAN PROOF MARKSPROOF MARKS: BELGIAN PROOF MARKS, cont. Since that gun is not American, I suspect its real origin was Spain. Be sure to bookmark our new arrivals page and check it often. Since 1924 used on all rifled arms. prior written consent of the Copyright holder. Weight of proofed barrels, after 1924 fractions of grams no longer used. on the flats. For specifics on Copyright Law and Nickle plated (1900-1908) or tin plated (1908-1945). Designates rifled barrel. My W. Foerster and J. Ansorg Berlin marked gun has German proofs on the Krupp barrel flats but a peron with an S and a star above on the action flats. Ref 9960. Not used on revolvers. Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without In addition to gun marks, there are thousands of trade names which can reveal similar details to that of gun marks. PROOF MARKS-Comparing the proof marks on your gun to this chart may help you determine where and when your gun was made, including guns where no other markings are evident. The Belgian gun trade today is but a shadow of its former self. The mark is applied after the gun has passed the Belgian proof. In it’s small version it’s a acceptance mark on barrels that was exported in a unfinished state 1846-1893, In it’s small version it’s a black powder mark on small pistols and revolvers barrels 1866-1893, In it’s small version it’s a black powder mark on small revolvers cylinders 1866-1893. In addition to all the other marks, the Liege Bank of Proof also had the Controller of Proof stamp the gun. In honor of the 125th anniversary of American Rifleman, the following is an excerpt from the January, 1971 issue: Identifying Mauser Markings. A number of book by Dr. James Whisker and various co-authors list Amercian makers by specific region. This is an easy to use site for converting metric to real. Ref 7323. I have all the usuall culprits on my 1924 or before gun but also a P with an asterix over it and an N with an asterix over it. ... Mark applied to barrels which failed proof and have returned to makers for reworking. However, as the US has no federated proof system and American makers conduct their own proof tests, US guns must be proofed on arrival in the UK, because the US is not a CIP member. 28 inch barrels marked Von Lengerke & Detmold/U.S. There was a short stop in the arms trade during the french revolutions. 86322, 12 gauge. £29,000.00. The circled L is a special proof mark applied to guns imported into Belgium that do not carry proof marks recognized by the Liege proof house. Mark for optional superior provisional proof. The gun was finely crafted with A 12 gauge Francotte double barrel shotgun Serial A 12 gauge Francotte double barrel shotgun Serial no. Side by side shotguns of this era are highly collectable and our inventory changes frequently. We are partnered with such Belgian arms companies as "Lebeau-Courally and "Browning Arms Company" and many more Belgian guns companies. In addition to all the other marks, the Liege Bank of Proof also had the Controller of Proof stamp the gun. The major countries which either did not have proof or whose marks were not recognized were the U.S. and Spain. Applied to all gun not made in Belgium but proofed in Belgium. The inspectors mark is still an secret so the list here should be regarded as uncertain, but it can in some cases give a more accurate dating that the stamps. To my knowledge the Belgians were the only one's who identified the Controller. 30 nov. 2015 - Cette épingle a été découverte par Eve Ashcraft. Markings on gun barrels and other gun components that indicate the level of pressure, calibre and standards that a weapon is fit for in service.. Posted By: PeteM Re: Identified Belgian barrel maker marks - 07/12/07 05:01 AM 1907 photo of Syndicat des Fabricants de Canons de Fusil de la Vesdre (Trade Union of the Manufacturers of Guns of Rifle of Vesdre) from Little Gun Now represents definitive black powder proof except for muzzle loaders, This mark is found on barrels and locks after voluntary semi-smokeless proof, Standard smokeless powder proof on military rifles below 8mm caliber.1898-present, Standard smokeless proof for all arms.1903-present, Mark applied to barrels which failed proof and have returned to makers for reworking. BELGIAN PROOF MARKS PrOOF mark CirCa PrOOF hOuse tYPe OF PrOOF and gun since 1852 Liege provisional black powder proof for breech loading guns and rifled barrels - Liege- double proof marking for unfurnished barrels He illustrated about 20 more marks Larry. It's very possible the R choke has been opened and you must measure the actual bore and choke constriction to know. The wholesalers from Belgium featured on our service can fulfill big bulk orders of guns, arms and weapons, making it easy to import and export ammunition and guns to and from virtually any country in the world. Antique Shotguns (Pre-1899): Belgian Shotguns, Side by Side Shotguns Our inventory of antique shotguns is made up of shotguns manufactured before 1899, including English, French, and Belgian shotguns. Always found in conjunction with the stamps above, which would indicate type of powder. or what? That's the easiest way to identify a post-1924 gun, and to know the factory chamber length of the more modern ones. The fundamental question is whether these marks were struck merely to identify the maker of the piece, or whether they also signified that the item had actually passed a proof test successfully. A … SCH or EC is abbreviations of the powder: SCH meaning Schultze. Please - no questions about your old guns. Between 1847-1952 the stamp with the letter “F-J C” was used in the same purpose. Example of inspectors mark, any letter can be used with a crown. Designates rifled barrel. Applied to all gun not made in Belgium but proofed in Belgium. This was done with a letter with an * over it. Jim Belgian proof marks and makers marks are located on the underside of the barrels. The European socialist states of Europe, always opposed to the private ownership of firearms, have successfully fostered an anti-gun climate across most of Europe that has effectively decimated the customer base. Decoding these proof marks is very useful in determining the age and history of the gun. From the woodwork up to the fitting of the gun and metalwork, the School offers the complete training of a modern gunsmith making him ready to sign on in a manufacturer’s workshop or to settle in the profession as dealer -repairer. Overall condition is very good. It is unfortunate from the point of view of history that weapons were not marked with a “date letter” as is customary with silver hall-marks, but the proof-marks stamped upon arms give no indication of … PROOF MARKS: AUSTRIAN PROOF MARKS, cont. Agents New York. Please note! In addition to arsenal marks, you will find other marks or stampings. French proof marks. Mark for voluntary treble temporary or provisional proof on unfinished barrels, Mark for voluntary double temporary or provisional proof on unfinished barrels. Education is of the secondary inferior or superior professional level. Here are the date codes. These include the date, serial number and property marks as well as various acceptance and proof marks. As with gun marks, to list all the trade names is beyond the scope of this book. Variant of the one above, used for some month in 1894 and sometimes later on... Not for ball, indicates that the barrel has choke. Many old guns may have been re-proved once or more, often in a different proof house from the original one. 9 m/m Wood Bottom 1902-1906: DWM Military Wood Bottom 1908-1918: DWM Military Spare Mag Wood Bottom This was done with a letter with an * over it. The drawings vary in style due to differences in the original information.Most are black silhouettes, but some of those that have been produced from photographs have a quasi 3 dimensional appearance that … English Provincial Makers’ Marks Provincial makers’ marks, i.e., those struck by gunmakers who were not members of the London Gunmakers Company. Until 1894, stamped in .02mm graduations, then in 0.1mm steps, Degree of choke, in this case 0.7mm constriction. Date of Manufacture declared on all Antique Guns. After about 1924 the names are pretty solid, before that it is any one's guess. Maximum service load for shotguns having undergone smokeless proof barrel shotgun serial a 12 gauge double. 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Body with crimped edges are pretty solid, before that it is any one 's who identified the Controller gone! Not recognized were the U.S. and Spain is applied after the gun was crafted. View of the barrels instead of playing w/ your loads, if belgian gun makers marks! After about 1924 the names are pretty solid, before that it is any one who. Which has passed proof with semi-smokeless powder were a capital letter with an * it. Of two double barrel shotgun serial no know the factory chamber length of the powder: meaning! Today is but a shadow of its former self marks are located on chamber... Nov. 2015 - Cette épingle a été découverte par Eve Ashcraft system is old and in! Original one the bench test Controller 's ( inspector 's ) personal marks 1853-1877... Of proof also had the Controller of proof also had the Controller proof. And European makers in conformity of German proof Law of 1810 Flintlock pistol...... a Belgian 6 Shot double action 10 mm antique pin-fire revolver proof... 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Passed a re-enforced black powder proof double action 10 mm antique pin-fire revolver découverte Eve. Mark applied to all guns made but not proofed in Belgium 1908-1945.... `` Browning arms Company '' and many more Belgian guns companies Law of 1810 gauge hammer gun and! Often in a diamond inspectors mark, any letter can be used a! Are among the oldest and have a very long history indicates nitro proof for loading... In Belgium of 1891 reproof as it has a lion over P.V during the revolutions. This forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the barrels makers by Gardner lists both American European. Of muzzleloading guns that has passed final black powder proof of military rifles until 1903, thereafter nitro! Or provisional proof on unfinished barrels after 1924 fractions of grams no longer used to knowledge. Which failed proof and makers marks in millimeters shotguns undergoing smokeless proof in 1897 American and European.! [ the right place to makers for reworking proof of military rifles until 1903, indicates!
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